Powerful And Unpolished

Welcome back everyone. This is Tim Salmans. This is powerful and unpolished, and we have another spectacular guest today. Um, I seem to always invite my friends or, or, uh, colleagues or people who I cross paths with who become my friends. So that's what I love about this show. Um, today our guest is Michelle Madano, and I'm gonna welcome Michelle.

I just wanna say that first and foremost, welcome. Thank you. It's great to be here with you, Tim. Thank you. And so I'm going to give, uh, the biography that I know and have Michelle correct me if there's an area to correct. Um, what I know of Michelle, and, and one reason why I wanted her on the show is. She is just incredibly skilled and talented.

She is a lead minister at Mile High Church currently. Um, she's been in some sort of lead ministry in the ministry for I think over 30 years, I believe. Um, she's taught so many different modalities and approaches to empowerment, to growth. She's also a speaker. Um, I've seen her on several different stages.

You know, it goes along with, you know, the, the minister ministerial stuff too. But she's originally from Colorado. She spent a lot of time in Arizona, and now she's back to her home roots here, back in Colorado again. And what else have I left out, Michelle? It sounds like you, you captured it pretty well.

That's great. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah. Pretty good. Mm-hmm. So, and if you ever get a chance, uh, for, for those folks who are local, you know, trip into my eye, she, she's exceptional, inspirational. She's, and I'm not just saying it 'cause she's here. I mean, this is how I talk about her. She's, I just love her slant, you know, her, her, her own personal stamp that she puts on things and there's a wisdom about that.

We're gonna explore that today. As you know, we kind of go all over the place on these podcasts, and for me it's about how do we keep it real and genuine? And this thing called life that we're dealing with. You know, we get focused on our personal life, we get focused on our business life, and sometimes they don't always play well together.

And so I thought about bringing, uh, Michelle on just to kind of delve with. The common state of what's going on in, in, in our world right now. There's a lot of questions, a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety for some people, for other people, maybe not so much. I guess how I wanna kick this off first, Michelle is, tell me, I wanna, I want to go back more into your background.

What was it that got you onto your path to, to even want to be a minister? Well, um, I didn't, I didn't grow up going, boy, I hope when I grow up I could be a minister. That wasn't really at all in my conscious awareness. I sort of fell into that desire and it was really, I would say back behind that. I've always been a, a very curious person about the nature of the universe.

I've always felt very inspired by how fascinating it is to be human. Um, the, the connection of the spiritual life. I've loved studying all sorts of different spiritual paths, uh, talking to people on many paths, and having my own inner experience of the divine. And what happened, um, in the world of form really is that.

My parents, when we moved to Denver from, we were living in Salida, Colorado, small town. We moved here when I was about six years old to Denver and my father. Who has a Hispanic background began to pretty much insist that we go to Catholic church where we had not been big churchgoers before. And so we, we went to the Catholic church and I really loved the um, community and I loved the beauty of the church and I loved the ritual and I could feel the spiritual vibe there, but there were some things that happened in my personal life around my parents, and they're horrible.

Dynamic, um, violent marriage that the priests weren't very helpful with. And then, um, I got kicked outta catechism 'cause I was too curious. I asked too many questions. And so when I got kicked outta Catechism, that was, I always call it, that was my third strike on the Catholic teaching. And I thought, I can't do this anymore.

I don't think this is who I am. So my mother and I, when I was 13, began searching for. Spiritual truths and we found, uh, spiritual truths that really resonated with us. But when I asked her about them, she would say, there's no church like that. And if they are, they're the fringe people or they're kind of cultish or whatever.

So for a few years we just sort of did our own thing and then we, we wandered into Mile High when I was 15, and I knew I was home spiritually at that point. And for many reasons it's. Kept feeling, this is where I belong, this is where I should be. So it was when I was 18 years old, I was in a class. 'cause we believe in spiritual education here and we want people to grow.

So I took some classes between high school and college or I took a class, the, the initial class, and I was in that class and I'd never. Ever entertained the notion of being a minister. Loved our ministers here at Mile High Church, but never once had thought I should do that, and this inner voice just outta nowhere said, you should be a minister.

And I went. No, that is so stupid. I'm why we didn't wanna do that. And I had this whole thing about ministers are boring. That's not cool. No, I was gonna be an actor for gosh sakes. That was my plan. I was, I'D enrolled in University of Colorado to be a communications theater major and I had a whole plan for my life.

And it did not include being a boring minister, that's for sure. But. I couldn't quite let it go, and it couldn't quite let me go. And so even though I went on into college and pursued that degree, I still kept taking classes at Mile High and it just, and I also was working here on the staff. I got a job here eventually and on the administrative staff, and it just stayed with me until I finally had kind of a surrender moment where I said, all right, nice.

This is what I'm supposed to do. It's what I'll do. And that led you on a journey where you traveled, well you ended up in Arizona for a while, running a church down there and then re returned back to Mile High. Um, I have a real affinity for Mile High I, you know, 'cause of the community that they build. Um, it's really interesting 'cause I still, I, I think even now to this point in my life, when I still think of church.

Church is like, yeah, like, I enjoy going to mile high. And to me it, it doesn't quite feel like church. But, you know, I grew up sort of in an experience where we believed, I, I mean my grandfather was a Pentecostal minister, so we kinda came down from that sort of, you know, doctrine of Christianity and my parents were ran away because it was just so, you know, brim fire, you know, kind of thing.

Brimstone and, um. But we were always kind of like, you know, there is something out there, there is something believe, you know, like this kind of thing. And, and it's interesting when I cross paths with people and they share their experience of church or their resistance or church is supposed to be this way or you know, I, I've even read some of the reviews and this was years ago.

And some of the reviews that people put on social media, it's like, it, it, it's back to that brimstone kind of like mentality. And I'm like going, wow, if you're that, that kind of person that has to lash out at people in order to make yourself right. And that's one thing that I, the reason why I'm going down this line is that's very common in our world today.

Where a lot of people, a lot of organizations, a lot of groups, a lot of political, religious, every kind of sect of community is lashing out at whoever to make themselves. Right. Right. And it's so interesting to, what I appreciate of, uh, and still appreciate about Maha is that it's, I can go there, I can actually be in relationship to the message and see what it means.

For me on my path, not, I need to go in and, and make sure that people see me so that they know that I'm a good practitioner. It doesn't mean that that's not there, but you know, it, it, it, that's I think in any organization, right? You have people who put on a good show and then you have other people who maybe don't put on as good of a show, but.

What's the quality of their presence, I think. Right. And with the, the background of Mile High as my, it's the first church I ever belonged to, and I didn't join it until I was in my early thirties, and I never thought I'd belong to a church. So I'm just kinda sharing this about, you know, part of the reason why I, I love this community and, and wanted to have you on the show is.

To really kind of explore. 'cause that's what we do at our bus, at our business insights for choice. It's really let's explore the, the spectrum because right, if we're not willing to, there's so many people out there that aren't willing to question their beliefs, to question their religion, to question their, their politics.

They think that by going and finding proof to what. Backs up. Their thinking is questioning. It's not. Questioning means, can you walk away from something? Can you sit here and say, this is not, this does not speak for me. Right? And the reason why I, I am really kind of like exploring this question is 'cause only when you question it can you really then have the debate with yourself or have the, the growth within yourself.

To have partnership and ownership with that belief system rather than something that, 'cause I'll tell you, if I went with what I was handed down as a kid, it would mean nothing to me. So the reason why I'm going down this direction, I guess right now, I'm just kind of going where the vibe takes me, but um, is I kind of hold spirituality.

The concept of spirituality is the practice of a belief. And for me, it seems like maybe in our culture. When, when people hear about spirituality, they see it as another religion sometimes. Sure. What is your take on as, as I pontificate over here on this, um, and I'm just trying to pull back things. It, it's not that any of it's right or wrong, per se, it's just an explorative, but.

What are your thoughts, uh, uh, about kinda spiritual community and, and the practice of spiritual, whether it's in a organized doctrine or outside of one? Well, you're bringing up a lot of interesting issues for me because, you know, even, um, even here, so we have practices. We are a religion. Uh, we are, we have disciplines, we have traditions.

We have. Things that people can practice. The difference for me between our religion or spiritual practice and some of others that maybe people have encountered is that I often call us like a buffet. When you go to a buffet, you get to pick what you want to eat, and if you, if you skip over the shrimp for some reason, no one shames you or makes you wrong for it.

No one goes, well, gosh, you didn't even try the shrimp. What's wrong with you? Now, they, a dysfunctional family might, but. In most cases with a buffet, you take what you want, what sounds good to you, and what you're interested in. And I see mile high and our tradition, our religion, much like that. We ha we offer a lot of things and people show up to this buffet and can take as little or as much as they want and don't think for a minute that because it's this open place that we don't also have people who sometimes.

Uh, project onto each other. Hey, you're not doing that right. You're not quoting Ernest Holmes, right? Or you're not giving that prayer, right? Or you're not ushering the right way. We still have people who wanna argue over the details, believe you me, because that is human nature, right? We, we, we don't, I think you pointed out, we don't want to feel alone.

So one way to not feel alone is to be with other people who we feel are in agreement with us. And um, and so I think that a tradition like ours can be very open-ended and filled with possibility for some, but then there are others who really need and want more structure to feel safe. They need and want for someone that they admire.

Who they think is a spiritual leader to tell them, okay, here's what you have to do to live a good life and make it to heaven, or to get to Nirvana, or to get to whatever's next. And the elusiveness of our teaching, the self responsibility, the um, the, uh. Living your life out and paying attention to your choices, the being in eth in in, uh, ethical alignment and, and, and spiritual alignment for the highest good of yourself and others.

I'm sorry, but it's not an easy practice. I think our faith tradition is one of the hardest to practice of all of them because no one here will tell you what to do. If we do, we're not doing it right. You come to me with your worst problem. I'm not gonna tell you what to do about it. I'm gonna help you figure out what's the best choice for you.

But I'm not gonna project my moral, ethical, uh, standards, even spiritual standards on someone else. And so that is, that is awesome and freeing for many of us. And it's scary as all get out for. A huge portion of people who just can't do it. And so sometimes in their not feeling comfortable, they either can just walk away and go, that's not for me, or have to walk away and be critical of this because it, it doesn't compare to other more stringent practices.

But we are a, we are a, we are a religion, we are a faith tradition. We are a spiritual community and we are very open and welcoming. To people, and that was for me, one of the things as a teenager, since I'd come out of a space where I'd been shamed and literally kicked out for asking too many questions to come into this environment and to be able to ask any question I want and still be accepted was huge for me.

It, it's, it was the number one thing that plugged me right in, and it continues to be important to me. So when I teach or I work with people. I never want to make people feel that you have to accept everything I'm saying here, hook, line, and sinker, or you can't be part of us. That's not how it works in our tradition at all.

That's what I'm talking about on the, on the podcast today, right? Yeah. It's, let's pull it back. Let's pull it apart. Let's explore it. There's. As you were just sharing it, it makes me think of, all right, then let's, let's step out of the spiritual religion realm and put it in the everyday realm. I mean, you go to work and you have.

Bob and Carol who want the rule followers, you need to do this. Right. Exactly. And it's like going, that's really about Bob and Carol wanting to be right, or wanting to be, you know, how can they say feel secure in knowing that other people are falling in line with what their expectations, right? Yeah.

Safety and security. Yeah. And you know, even if you can't, uh, I always find it fascinating, like I wanna say, even if I don't agree with your way of living, for me. Even bigger and broader than that is to be. Cool with you. Doing what you need to do now doesn't mean I can't have boundaries. It doesn't mean that if we're in a, you know, you and I are doing a partnership or we have a project, and your way of doing that project is, Hey, let's work every morning from 3:00 AM to 6:00 AM and that's just not gonna work for me.

Then we have to negotiate and work it out. But it's not gonna help for me to walk away and go, gosh, that darn Tim, he just wants to work at the craziest hours. What an idiot he is. How dare he tell me that I can't work when I wanna work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't do anybody any good. That's just toxic relat relatedness.

What is a better strategy is to say, Tim, that those times don't really work well for me. How can we move forward on this project and find. Either you work when you wanna work and all you know, but people just have a hard time doing that. You're right in every realm, not just in religion and faith, tradition and politics, uh, even marriages and work environments.

How can I be with you in a collaborative connecting way where we can all, um, have our needs met? When I was young here at Mile High, they used to have a group that I would go to often that was run by Judy and Joe Seba called the Win-Win Forum. And the win-win forum was all about how can business people work together and negotiate and network and support each other in a way that everyone wins, that every business prospers.

So I would say in this conversation, how can I work with the people that I have in my life in a way that everyone. Gets to experience joy in the way they wanna live their life. That if you wanna be a certain faith tradition, I can say Fantastic. Tell me about that. How's that working for you? What do you love about it?

But you can also let me live in what gives me joy. I love it. I love it. I love it. I'm glad you're here today. Yeah. It's, for me, it's uh, it's that acceptance that you're talking about to me. I, I've always loved. To be with people of other faith practices to learn the dynamic of what is maybe very similar to a philosophy I buy into, or very opposite of what, right, right.

And I almost liken religion to me when, when I work at the human development aspect, and I think about that when I work with clients. Is religion's another language? It's, it's, it's just another language, you know? And when people fight so hard to, you know, you should only speak English in this country, it, it's in alignment with that like communication.

Communication is a multi-layered experience. You know, it's nonverbal, it, it's, it's language, it's accent, it's, um, cultural influence. I mean, there's so much to communication in general. Yes. And I agree with you. I, I feel that, that the philosophy, the spiritual philosophy and the practice of, uh, the science of mind, religion is probably one of the hardest ones because you're responsible for your life.

You're responsible for your lessons, you're responsible for how you receive them. And you know, for me, the, I think that's the reason why I love it, is I'm not, I've done what I can to hang in there and follow the rules, but I'm not a rule follower. I, I, I've been a rule breaker since I was probably three years old.

And, you know, I don't do it. And I know some people who are rule breakers that it's all around their ego. They're just there to be abstinent and it's like going, no, if you're just doing that, then that's self-indulgent. But you know, if, if you're engaging in a practice of e explorative, outside, outside your awareness outside the realms, then when you do take responsibility, that's like, you know, for me, when, when, when people share the concept that, that the creator or God is outside of them and you know, that kind of aspect, I'm like going, I don't know.

For me, I just kind of go to the sense of. The, the, the essence, the being, the entity, the whatever you wanna call it, that created the universe, like the expansive universe, the dynamic, and all the way down to and beyond, into our bodies, into our cells, into our DNA. I'm like, yeah, this thing, we try to kind of turn into a human character that gives us some sort of validation and it's like, wow, that's really small.

Relatedness. It's really small thinking, and I understand where in our, in, in the world, not just our culture, but in the world where people want to hang on to what they've been told and taught. Because exploring it, you know, that that's, that's a powerful, challenging moment. To really question your belief system based on how your relationship is with it, not necessarily what you've been told and what you've been reinforcing most of your life.

Because I saw, I saw that in my growing up formative years. You know, it was like, this is how this. Group or family, they did their church. This how this group or family, and because I didn't belong to any of 'em, I would actually be invited to go to all of them. And to me it was like, it was just another expression of God, it was another expression of the creator or whatever you want to call it.

And that's what I appreciate about, about the science of mind is the, it's open at the top, but it's not easy. Like you have to be in awareness with your relationship to that. Let me ask you and Michelle, I mean, of all the years that you've been, um, working with the public and, and you know, really growing with people, is there one experience or person or family or something like this that really kind of like you just saw a blossoming of somebody, you know, where they kind of found themselves and, and, and really found their stride once any, anything coming to mind there?

Wow, I, I really. So many stories I feel. So I feel like that's one of the greatest blessings of this work that I get to do is to watch people heal. The, the beliefs they have about themselves and life and each other in a way that, uh, allows them to continue to thrive. One, I guess one of the stories that's coming to mind when you asked the questions, um, the question is that when I was, uh, serving in Arizona, um, I was teaching our basics class.

It's called Beyond Limits. It's about an eight week class, and there's a particular session that's all about forgiveness. And so we talk about the power of forgiveness and how so many traditions. It's one thing that almost every faith tradition has a connection of, no matter what you believe or teach about, most faith traditions talk about you.

You gotta find a way to forgive. And we have our reasons here in our teaching too that are very similar about. The power of forgiveness. But it was a really, really powerful class. And after the class was over, this woman, um, left and said, I'm gonna go use the restroom before I drive home. And I said, fine.

And I was cleaning things up and she was taking a long time and I was concerned she wasn't well. And so I just. Kinda let her do what she needed to do. And she came outta the restroom and she had this look on her face. And I said, are you okay? And she said, you know, during the class tonight when we were talking about forgiveness, I was thinking about my grown daughter.

She and I have been estranged for years, and when we did the meditation on forgiveness, I forgave her. And while I was in the restroom out of the blue, she called me on the phone. And she said, I've been in there just talking to her. That's, and we're reconnected and we're gonna have lunch in the next few days.

And I watched this woman reconnect with her daughter and them forgive each other and start a new relationship that was just beautiful and joyful and profound. And they really made a difference in each other's lives. I mean, that's just. Like one example of somebody who said, I'm, I'm gonna practice. I'm not just gonna show up and listen to the things people say there.

I'm actually gonna do them. And, and it had such a, an amazing impact, but there's countless examples for me of people who've changed their lives, both in this faith tradition and other faith traditions. I mean, that's the thing is that I al always tell people too, like I am pretty sure. That when the time comes that I cross over into the next plane of existence, there are going to be things that have to be corrected even about what we believe in this teaching that are probably not exactly 100% right, and that's okay with me.

I think the, the, the risk that people have, or the thing that gets them caught up is that there's a fear of death. There's a fear of being judged by whatever it was that created this universe. And therefore getting it right is really important. And sometimes I think out of even love, people wanna save their loved ones and help them get to heaven or get to wherever they think is next.

And so we get a little, we get a little bit fear based about it, but ultimately, um. I think everyone owes it to themselves to explore and discover what traditions exist out there, and to find things that align with what we most believe and trust ourselves in that process. Absolutely. And the, the example that you shared makes me smile.

Yeah. And it's, I've had very dynamic experiences like that with people I've crossed paths with before in this teaching or belief system, stuff like that. Actually, as you were sharing it, it reminded me, I was sitting in a, one of the specialty classes or something like this, and I think Roger was running the, Dr.

Roger was running the event. And, um, it was an insightful, introspective type work kind of experience. Ironically, about three days before that, I was speaking to a very dear friend who is a, um, Christian pastor, and when we were chatting and talking, I, I was expressing how, um. I really have an affinity, like I, from my experience I believe, or, or what's worked for me is that these infants, these little children, like, you know, six months, a year and a half, two and a half years outside of their acclimating to this world, they have so much divine truth in them.

Like, like as little children, all of us, I really have always felt that we had such a divine truth. I mean, it's men that go and justify and destruct and create wars and stuff like this. Children don't. And that may sound funny and people be like, oh, of course children don't. Yeah. But yeah, 'cause children would be smart enough not to act like, you know how grown adults act like children.

Right. Two totally different children. But I had this experience, I had this conversation with this pastor that it was a dear friend and I just loved what, what they had to share was, um. They said, it's funny that you say this because it says in a number of different places in the Bible that Jesus says, it's as a child, you will come to know me.

Right? And when I go and I look at those, it's like even one, it was actually thinking the Book of Timothy, right? That talk about how Jesus gets upset because you know, the, the disciples are keeping the kid kids away, or something like that. Right? So I had this experience, had this conversation, and it was just reaffirming the work that I was continuing to do, you know?

And, and not only for myself, but for those I work with. Right. Well, at that meeting with Roger, um, I had a, there was like three women that sat behind me and one on the end we were kind of in this discussion. We had a break and we're in a discussion, and, uh, she was really having a hard time and I was just kind of being present with her.

I had mentioned, you know what the, the, the child, you know, it is as a child, we'll come to know God. And she really liked that saying. But then I put a twist on it. I said, but what about the child within you? And she like, melted. And it was like a whole new awareness for her. It was like going, wow, I, I'm so taking care of everyone else.

What about taking care of not only me, but the child in me? Yes. And that was, it was like, I totally forgot about that. Until you started sharing your story. I was like going, yeah. It's, it's amazing how that happens. Mm-hmm. Yes. And so in our challenging world today, and I'm a person where I, I think sometimes I make people uncomfortable because I talk about the stuff that is usually the stuff that's talked about behind closed doors.

Right, or at the water cooler. When other people walk away, it's like, well, no, let's actually, let's explore the whole conversation. Right? And part of the conversation is, is sometimes we need to know the ugly that's out there. Not necessarily to be righteous about it or justify, but to know that that is also on the spectrum of life that we're dealing with.

And what are the other choices around that that can influence it in a way that we have. Personal intention, personal accountability, personal integrity, something that actually means something to us. 'cause it's so easy in this world. I mean, and, and what do you think, um, especially with social media, it's so easy in this world to be critical and not accountable.

Oh yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. And because, uh, we are. A lot of us are, are, are fear-based. Um, we, we've been taught, I wrote a whole book about fear. Um, we have been taught to embrace fear as the primary modus operandi of things. And so we, we approach everything. Often we can fall into what I call the fear flu, where everything is about what?

What, what should I be afraid of today? What, what should I be scared of today? What do I need to look out for today? Uh, even the most, um, optimistic of us can fall into the trap of that fear and, um, and it, it, it doesn't do us any good. It never blesses us. I mean, yeah, if you are, if you or I are truly in a dangerous situation where, uh, someone is driving erratically or someone is, um, threatening us or someone you know directly, uh, we may need to make an adjustment.

We may need to. To, to do something. But most of us are living in flight or fight constantly because we're listening to what we're hearing on television and hearing in on social media. Now, again, like I think you said, it's not like, I think we should put our head in the sand and, um, ignore what's happening.

However, the question, when you choose to pay attention to what's happening, the very next thing one has to ask is, who am I gonna be in relationship to? What's happening? Am I going to be someone who, uh, just allows myself to be afraid all the time and contributes to the dark? Cloud of fear that's hovering over our planet or am I going to be someone who knows what's going on, sees it, and then does the work to keep myself in a place of calm assuredness, um, does what I feel I am called to do.

You know, this weekend we have a King's protest that is predicted to be really big out there for some people going out and protesting, Nope, not gonna do it for others. They're all into it. And to me. I think everyone needs to find out through an inner practice. Of awareness. What is it that I feel most called to do?

Not I'm gonna do it because all my friends are gonna do it, and if I don't go do it, they're gonna think I'm lame or I'm not gonna do it because those, you know, stupid libtard are out there doing it. So I'm not gonna do it at all. I mean, we all have to find our place within the things we hear about that is from a place of power.

Centeredness and what most serves me and my energy and let everybody do what serves them. Uh, but I personally, Michelle, always looks for what's going on in the world of form. And if something really disturbs me that I hear going on, that's where I need to pray today. Because I believe there's no one or no thing that's all good or all bad.

There's no political party, there's no president, there's no spirit political leader. There's no process. There's no war, there's no, uh, policy that's all good or all bad. It's all, it's all different shades of. Good, bad, up down. Yes. No. And I know that there is, even in our world right now, far more good, positive, transformative things happening in this world than there is bad.

Yeah, absolutely. And. And that's why I, I feel we need to talk about it. We need to have these discussions. Not, I love that you, you, you know, you brought up the, 'cause I hear this fairly often, um, li the Libtard, right? Yeah, yeah. The name names people call each other. Yeah. And so it's, it's interesting because the people that are calling each other names is, is, is so prevalent.

It, it, it's, you know, it's. It's akin to back in the day, well, even now, people will, um, the road rage kind of thing. Yes. Like, you know, people are like losing all, all form of um, respect, you know, personal respect, personal integrity. And I find it interesting 'cause I wrote about it in my book, um, about the power grabs.

And when someone's using, when someone uses a derogatory term, you know, with intention, I mean, maybe someone, people get caught up and they talk about, oh, microaggressions like this. Well, not all microaggressions are equal, you know, and a lot of times people will want to get into debates and discussions about that.

And it's like going, we, we, we don't always need to make sure that the speaker is the one that's responsible. The listener needs to be responsible too. And so, but when someone is intentionally being derogatory or going outta their way to, to fit in with a group and they're, they're using language in terms that are name calling it, that's just a sign of how you, how weak you are as an individual person.

Like you have not done any sort of really in depth work on yourself, so it's gonna be easy to, to call someone else a name, and all it is is just a weak person trying to steal power. From another individual, another situation, and, you know, that needs to be coming out more consistently. It's like going, really, you use that language so you know, why do you feel so threatened by something if it's so bad?

You know, if you're attacking something, then why are you feeling so threatened by it? Right? There's, there's that, that operation of fear and, and a lot of times people will share. I, I, I love what you're sharing because. I think of, uh, Maslow's, uh, hierarchy, right? And I am really a person that is, you, you can go act like a cave person all you want.

You can, you can swim in fear. It's easy. It's, it's expected. It's so commonplace. It's part of, it's part of our DNA makeup, so why not just double down on what's easy, you know? But. Experiencing and, and, and reinforcing fear, and justifying fear in order to gain power is just weakness and in the hierarchy.

I'm like, no, I am all about self-actualization. This is your life. Why did this struggle come to you today? What is that showing you? Yeah. It came there to teach you something. It came there to show you something. And the grace that you have, Michelle, when you hold space for someone else, whether they're in agreement, not in agreement, like you said, it's like there is no person that is absolutely wrong.

Absolutely right. Absolutely. You know, all this, it's um, that grace is a gift and it's a practice though. It's a practice that you have to learn. And I think that I'll throw this out there and, and let me know what your thoughts are. I think a lot of the fear that happens today is because everybody's so right about everyone else, but honestly, from, from real in-depth, witnessing and watching, they don't know who the hell they are.

So it's easier to lash out at others. Well, sure. And it's, it's, um, it's all a big projection game. It is. Like I, the only way that I can see you is through my eyes. My eyes and my belief systems and my uh, uh, experience that I've had so far will, will determine my conclusions about you. So all of my conclusions about you are really all about me.

They tell me about me. They don't tell me anything about you. I love Byron Katie says, we don't really have a relationship with anybody. We just have a relationship with our perception. Of other people and even, even the people you're married to or your family, they, all they can do is have a perception about you based on their own ideas of right and wrong, good and bad, up and down, what you've done that worked what you haven't done.

And that's why. Have you ever noticed like someone might. Think, oh, I, that Tim guy, he's just the greatest guy in the world. I just loved him. And then somebody else is like, what a jerk. He's a total jerk. I, I, how can you think he's a good guy? Who's right? Nobody's right. Because we all see everybody in the news, everybody we work with, everybody we're having a relationship with is about us.

So that's how we can change our relationships when we're willing to see that. And then that's the hard part, isn't it? Be accountable to say, wow, I've got a really negative viewpoint about Tim. I need, I need to take a look at that. What is that about for me? Does he remind me of someone I don't like? Does he remind me of, uh, of, of some, some idea that I have hated or disliked?

D what, what is it that's getting in the way of me being an acceptance of Tim and when I can do that work? Then I can have peace and I can have happiness, and I can have fulfillment. I may not ever choose to be your best buddy. I may have a have a boundary that just says, well, you know, I don't agree with him, but I bless him on his way.

I bless him to be who he is. Uh, that's fine. But that animosity that, like you say, the name calling, the making wrong, the disrespect, the lack of social graces, the out and out. Um. Uh, just angry ways we treat each other. It says more about those people who are doing that than it does about the people that they are criticizing.

Amen. Love it. Thank you. And it's, it's so interesting that you say that because I think of people that I knew as kids or people that I've seen kids do this before where on the playground they hated and despise each other, get in a fight, and now all of a sudden they're best buddies. Right? Right. Yes. Or.

It goes the other way where, you know, they, they learn to get along, but they don't, you know, they no longer have this visceral reaction. Right. They, they, they've learned to have a little bit more space. Yeah. That's one of the things that, another thing that I talk about in the book is about attachment versus detachment, and when you're a person, so we, we know the name callers are out there.

They're the weak ones because they have to use names in order to feel powerful. That's just weakness. It's also the aspect of. I have no idea where the hell he was taking us. Oh. Had one of those comments where it just sort of flew outta your brain. Eh, it was, well, I had like three things come in at once and I was like going, wait a minute, where am I at?

But yeah, you know, it, it is like you're saying the attachment and what I was, where I was gonna Yes. Was the attachment and the detachment is, um, when we have to be so right about somebody. So right about how wrong they are. So right about how right they are. It's like, whether they're right or whether they're wrong, it's, it's kind of irrelevant.

It's when you're attached to that being right about them, then it's in that detachment that you actually also have a weakness too, because when you're detached, I mean, I, I wish, I wish this for all, uh, all of our politicians in the United States. It rarely happens, and part of it doesn't. It doesn't happen because it's our culture, but I really wish people could.

Make an effort a, a real effort to strive for some form of objectivity. Oh, yes. Mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that you're not attached to, you know, this news channel versus that news channel, or this poli political view versus that, you know, what, let's actually do the work that the work is meant to do. It's like we become a giant high school in some respects.

Everybody's attached to their perspective. So we're all in cliques and it's like. We're not that different from each other. We're really not. And you know, when you see somebody that's, I, I've shared this before on, on the show here, but that's where I don't want, or hunger for a catastrophe, but the one thing that happens when a catastrophe happens is people check their ego, they become more objective, they become more relatable, you know, so you're helping someone who's.

In a challenging situation, you're not worried about their religious or political or social politics. Right? Right. You're stepping up to do the right. Mm-hmm. And when someone's in pain or has lost a dear one or you know, it's a catastrophe there you, you have an empathy or a sympathy. And there are some people that have gotten so far to where they've kind of lost that connection within themselves.

And that's unfortunate. That's sad because. If you can't empathize with another being or soul going through their life experience, you're fooling yourself that you've got something to offer. Like you, you, what you have to offer is humanity, humility, connection, possibility, and that's really sort of what the show's about is we're gonna look at all the different behaviors, the good, the bad, the ugly, but ultimately it still comes back to.

What you, you said earlier, Michelle is there is so, there are so many, so, so, so many opportunities, so many, so many people that are filled with good, filled with good intentions. It's that aspect of what's available for us. Not only as an individual, but as a collective. Yeah. And one of the greatest examples that I like to use, and, and this may seem prosaic, but um, I look at nature.

If you go into a, a field of wild flowers, it just seems like whatever it was that created this universe has no interest in us all being the same. Uh, if that was the interest of whatever created, there'd only be one kind of tree, one kind of flower, one kind of weed, one kind of animal, one kind of, it would, there would be ones everywhere we look, and then there'd be lots of pressure.

If you popped up and you weren't a rose, there'd be lots of pressure. Nature would stomp you out because you did not show up as a rose. I think if we look at nature, the nature of this earth, the nature of this universe, what we see is that whatever created it seems to love diversity. It seems to love and want for us to exist in peace, not need to choke out the different kind of flower, not need to, uh, stomp on the different kind of flower, but to celebrate that difference.

In all of its many ways that it shows up. And if we could just behave like a, a big field of wild flowers, I think we'd all be a lot happier. Absolutely. I love that. Thank you. Um, I always say nature is, is the, the truth reflected back to us? It is. It totally is. Mm-hmm. And this is a classroom. I mean, I think of this lifetime, this experience, this world.

It's really a classroom. And for all those. Who are listening today, and you know, I hope that on your path, as you're exploring the world, you're open to learning what the classroom has to offer you. Because a lot of times when we are struggling in fear, when we are struggling in attachment, when we are stuck, we go to the old patterns of, I know that I've got this, you know, all this.

And it's, you know, be open to your greater truth. Right for yourself. You know, there's so we, we could talk for hours and going down 'cause there's so many rabbit holes you can go down, right? Stuff. Oh yeah. Most definitely. Yeah. You know, our thing is, is again, we talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly. And it's not to focus on the bad or the ugly, it's really what else is good.

We want, we we're, we're here to actually, you know, reflect back what is available to us, available to us to grow ourselves. Definitely. Thank you so much, Michelle, for, for meeting us today. Um, this was awesome. I may actually have you back if you're Oh, sure. Be happy to come back for all those folks out there.

Uh, if you want to check out Michelle, she's actually on, um, go to mile high.com. Right Mile church.org. Oh, mile. All right. Thank you. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, and I is like, hi, like HI. Hi. So yeah, so Mile high M-I-L-E-H-I church.org. And so go there and they have, uh, some past services that they have that you can tap into.

I actually do that, that you can also find 'em on YouTube, I believe. Yes. And, um, just wonderful messaging. Uh, just a space for you to grow. And the other thing, and we didn't really say this too, but um, I do want to add this little piece that the great thing is, is there's a number of people that go to Mile High who also belong to other religions and practices.

Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing is it's really about being inclusive, about really kind of, you know, being open to that possibility. So. Thank you so much, Michelle. Um, for those folks out there, if you like this, please share this with your friends. Hit hit the like button. Let us know what you think.