Powerful And Unpolished

Welcome back to Powerful and Unpolished. I'm Tim Salmans, I'm your host. We have another episode with a very special guest. I've had the pleasure of witnessing and getting to know this gentleman for a couple years, well, more than a couple years actually. It's been a little while, but, just really have, respect and admiration for this gentleman. His name is Josh Reeves. And, Josh, thank you very much for being here today. Grateful to be here. Thank you. I'm not sure which one I am more, polished or powerful, but Will unpolished or powerful, but we'll, we'll find out. Yeah, that, that's why I like that. I want, I wanna find the unpolished part. Right. There you go. So a little bit about Josh, just so that we can bring everyone up to speed., Josh is the lead minister at Mile High Church in. Lakewood, Colorado. For those who are listening abroad and also known as Nancy and Gavin's dad, he has written several books and we're gonna talk about his book that came out just last year. Similar timing as mine and, you can learn more about him, his other books, and kind of his message in the world. The learning, the Meaning place. The meaning place. org. So how long, how long have you had that website up, Josh? That website a few years. When I first became, a minister, I started my own kind of ministry called The Meaning Place, and we may talk about it. It kind of, failed, but I always liked the name and I kept it. And so it's been a great vehicle for my individual efforts while I'm serving, different, spiritual communities as a minister. Very nice, very nice. We're also going to be exploring his book. I have it right here. I'm gonna hold it up for the camera, although it may be backwards., but it's sacred time and, it says Finding true peace in a busy world. And what I love about it is, as I've read bits and pieces, going through it and exploring it's like, I love the stories that you use to tell, to educate, just the storytelling. You have a lot of stories, right? You build those up over time. Yes. Both stories of, personal embarrassment, for people to learn from as well as, you know, stories from a lot of rich interfaith traditions. And it's amazing when we study different faiths, you know, the commonalities that we find within them. Nice. So in sacred time, I want you to share with me, Josh, why this book, why this in the last year? What was it that was speaking to you? Yeah. You know, a key experience happened for me, you know, in the midst of the pandemic, where in a sense, you know, manufactured time. Slow down. You know, we all got stopped and I had, a year and a half year old little daughter and was still, you know, running business from home. But I remember sitting in the backyard with her, watching her. Discover fall leaves, you know, grabbing leaves from trees. And, you know, I'm looking at her and I'm thinking to myself, Josh, in five years you would give your left arm to just to be here and have this experience. And yet nonetheless, what was I doing, Tim, in that moment I was looking at my damn phone. You know, because so much of, my identity is in the manufactured self that lives within manufactured time, you know, that bases his wellbeing on his ability to help other people in the business to make the business successful, to sometimes feel needed, and even when. A soul stirring, inspiring experience happens like watching your daughter discover fall leaves. We can miss it., even someone like me who's had a daily spiritual practice for 30 years, can still miss it. And that kind of got me a little bit to the title and to the importance of, you know, living our lives. You know, there's an old quote that says that, a human being, doesn't have a soul. A human being is a soul. And that's where I wanted to get back to in writing this book was this idea that we, that we are souls and it's so much of this manufactured humanness that is really more of the illusion. Well, I like it. I like how you had sent me sort of a sentence breakdown of what the book STA stands for. It says the book, it's the difference between manufactured time for our superficial selves and sacred time for our being and becoming, whatever you wanna say. I know you wanna say yes. Yeah. You know, this isn't in the book, but the great Mary Oliver, you know, the poet, she says, we have. Three selves., the first self she calls the child that we were kind of our inner child. And I like how she breaks that down because for her, you can't do anything about the child that you were, you know, you can love them, but they are there, their wounds or whatever that may be. And she says, we can't change that inner child. She says the second self is the superficial self. This is the self of cocktail parties, you know, working hours, perhaps Tim, even podcasts as well to a certain degree. And it, and, what I say about that self, it's not that it's insincere, you know, however. As Emerson said, man alone is sincere. At the entrance of a second person, hypocrisy begins. So there's something about this constructed self that, is, a little bit made up., or as Alan Watts, the great. You know, beat Thinker used to say, be a genuine fake so you can bring genuineness to the superficial self. But most people focus on that, and this is where that manufactured time comes in. And then she says there's this third aspect of self, and she says, in her life, and this was in her later years, it's the one that she cares about. And it's the self that longs for the eternal. It's that part of our being that seeks to be just absolutely okay and whole the way that we are and. A lot of us, you know, we go through our lives and we experience time whooshing by, you know, just like being there with my daughter in the backyard. There's part of us that wants to hold onto the experience or says it's going by so fast, how am I missing it? I really think deep within that is this longing for the eternal, it's the recognition that, part of the spiritual work. In our lives isn't actually this old model of trying to secure an eternal life in the future, but to realize as much of it as we can in our day-to-day lives. And so part of what I hope sacred time means is it's how to get a sense of what is eternal. What is changeless? What really matters about who we are in our life, in the midst of this tipsy toy topsy world, where, you know, the other thing about the pandemic, I don't know about you, Tim, but I don't even believe in what year it is anymore. I just like, I live on shuffle. You know, like my iPod, like it could be 19 69, 19 77, listen to some kiss songs, you know, 1980s. It's like, you know, it's like we've lost track of some of these years and then it seems all upside down and mixed up. And another reason why Sacred time. Become so important, the time that I'm making to be a soul or who I really am versus, you know, trying to fulfill a to-do list. That, to be honest, Tim, I don't do it does me, right? It's just whoa, whoa. Yeah. As much importance as I put into that to-do list, it is not who I really. No, and it's, it's a, it's a, as I was sharing with you, Josh, right before we got on this, started recording, and as the listeners who do follow this, you know, this is, we talk about Josh, his work, his book, we talk about all of our guests, but ultimately we talk about who they are behind, like the life, the essence, right?, who's, who's the human that this is about, because it goes back to what you're just sitting there talking about is it's like, you know, what is our essence? What is it? And. So to learn a little bit more about you, what was it as a kid growing up? I mean, did, when you were a kid, did you say, Hey, I wanna go be a spiritual leader? Maybe you did. I don't know. Tell me. Absolutely not. You know? Yeah. That was the last thing on my mind and it was interesting 'cause I grew up in a not very religious. Family. I went to some Calvary Chapel school., more so, 'cause we lived in a bad neighborhood though, so I had a little bit of religious education. But my, you know, my dad was, a big fan of the British invasion music scene. So, you know, the Beatles and the Stones were, what was on the altar that we worshiped, you know, in our house. And, you know, growing up in the midst of eighties. Television. You know, we grew up in front of the tv and so in some ways for better 'cause we had great shows like All in the Family or US Kids had different strokes and Good Times and all of these shows that talked about moral behavior., and we had shopping malls. And so in a sense, you know, I grew up in the religion of pop culture, but one of the things that. Did for me, Tim, in developing, being a spiritual leader, is that the sacred isn't just in a church. It's in the church, you know, but it's outside of it too. It's in our everyday lives and that's always been something that I've been passionate about is, you know, finding a sense of the sacred in the everyday. And you know, when I was a teenager, like 14, 15 years old, I just stumbled, through my brother on this place called the Church of Religious Science in Huntington Beach, California. And there was a couple that ran a team program there and they picked me up and took me there. And, you know, I got involved and eventually started working with the teens there. It was a very inclusive philosophy. You know, this is in the mid nineties where, you know, kids were sometimes scared to come outta the closet and they'd come out there and be held with religious love. You know, you would do, the work that you're doing right now, who are you? Let's get human and be and be together and grow because of it. And so I just kind of fell in love with that and I think I found within the denomination a great medium to continue to create environments for people too. Become, you know, become who they are and to, you know, explore the great ideas of life. There's an old saying from Socrates where he says, weak minds talk about people. So in other words, gossip, meager minds talk about events. So therefore, you know, just news and all of this stuff going on in the world. Not that's not important, but great minds talk about ideas. And I've always been interested in talking about the big ideas because I think how we live in accordance or fail to live in accordance with those ideas says a lot about how we live our lives and how much of our potential we come to realize in this experience, even down to the quality of our relationships and conversations like the one that we're trying to have together today here. So what do you think? There's so many places we can jump off into this, but I mean, the one thing that, what do you think it is that gets in the way? I mean, there, part of me is just, and I'm sure my listeners, have an idea about this. I'm not here just to talk about hype and the good things and, you know, I'm, I'm about exploring possibility, but oftentimes to get to possibility, you gotta figure out what's in the way. You gotta figure out, you know, what are the barriers, what are the patterns of behavior that we're. Comfortable with that, actually stop us. So what is it that you, from your experience, you know, growing up and, and then you know, as a teenager, seeing people come out and in a safe space, knowing what that meant? You know, 'cause we're dealing with so many layers of influence. Yeah, I have three answers, to your, to your question. You know, back to teens and holding space, you know, when we're living this life there are so many people who see us for who they think we are or see us for who they want to be, our classification Republican or Democrat, you know, gay or straight, you know, whatever it may be. And you know how many people see you for who you say you wanna be. Right. How many people hold, I use that word lightly sanctuary enough to say this is a safe place. Tim, let your hair down be who you are. I think you're great no matter what. Tell me more about you. You know? And, and I think lack of those kind of spaces is one of the things that gets in the way. And yet for many of us, when we get into that space now, we've spent so much time outside of it is it freaks us. The hell out, right? We, we, it's hard to be in that space, but for me, whether it's, holding a space for teenagers or for hundreds of people at Mile High on a Sunday, my job is always the same. Can I create the environment for people to, give themselves enough permission? To become themselves., I also think, and this is the philosophical aspect, is just the basic idea, and this is talking about public events in society. If you're not thinking for yourself, you're letting someone or something else think for you. And so to have that commitment to say, I'm gonna, care about the issues of our day, you know, I care about what's going on in Minnesota. I care about what's going on at the southern border. I care about what's going on, wherever it is in the country to say, you know, my job is to get the information and to logically make a decision versus have it provided for me in a framed narrative that's going to keep me from any sort of growing. Understanding. You know, there's a, saying I use a lot in classes by, ish Henderson, a Native American that, I think is still alive today here in Colorado. He says, to truly listen is to risk being transformed forever, and the willingness and courage to listen and, form our own thoughts. Through conversation and dialogue is unfortunately a dying medium. And so I think we're, we're in trouble in that sense. And, the last thing I think keeps us from it, Tim, is, I will call it the devil of artificial harmony. You know, on the other side of the divisive thinking is also, are you okay? Am I making you happy? What can I say to not upset or offend you? This walking on eggshells that we do all the time sometimes, and even our most intimate relationships. You know, when I, when I say I love you, am I saying it? Because sweetheart. You've been a life forming trans, you know, transformational presence in my life. I love you more than yesterday. Or am I saying it as a transactional thing to maintain artificial harmony so we don't have to intimately connect so that I can keep my sense of an inner world in isolation as opposed to forming in a more intimate bond with you where, real transformation. Can happen. I think all these things, you know, lead to a sense of knowing and becoming comfortable in our own under, inner world. Tim, you know, at the great Thomas Merton, you know, he said that for many of us, our biggest fear isn't public speaking or going to the dentist. It's silence. You know, we're just, you know, it's having to, it's having to face our own thoughts and our own feelings, and sometimes we'll manufacture any drama, you know, anything it takes to keep us from confronting ourselves. I I love that you're saying that because it was, as you were sharing the three answers, you know, and I love the dynamic because. The book that I wrote that came out similar time as yours, it's really about what's our relationship to the spectrum that we're constantly dealing with. We're dealing with the spectrum. This idea that human beings have black and white answers is a joke that we play on ourselves. You know what? We live in a sea of 10,000 shades of gray. The fact that you think other people should know what your black and white is, it's your black and white. It's not theirs. And so it's this aspect of. I think, or I feel when I get the hit and I, I do this kind of work. It's a lot of times, you know, like you were sharing when you first started to answer, we're looking at the world out there. I mean, people don't even know their own relationship to themselves. Like they think they do because that's who they've lived with for so long and this, these are the patterns that they live with. But it's like, but why that? Why is this one so important to you? What is it? You know, which is why I think it then leads to like your third answer, which is, you know, we're, we're walking on eggshells because it's like, I'm like going, when are we going to get back to some sort of accountability or integrity of I am the listener, how I listen, I can choose. Some, I say this with some of my private clients, you know, when we're talking about relationships they're really struggling with, or maybe a boss blew up with them or something like that, and I say. Well, when this person said this, oh, that was really hurtful. It was really this. I said, okay, do you speak Hungarian? And they're like, they look at me strange. No. I said, all right. If they said it in Hungarian, would it have landed differently? You know? And they kinda look at me confused. And I say, the only thing is they say something to you. You have your assumptions about what they say. You go into reaction, get stuck energetically on the reaction, and you make them responsible for it. When in fact you have power in your own listening. To do something about it. Right? And it's, you know, a lot of people, this is, it's not a concept they've ever crossed paths with or people that do. Even if you have this concept, even as I explain it to you, it may make sense, but it may be all heady. It may be like, well, that's not real life, and that's not, but we do have the power of how are we, how are we listening? Did that person mean a microaggression against me, or are they just un unaware? You know, is this somebody that now we hold accountable? And so it's kind of that aspect of, you know, we're in this culture, of expansion, but in order to expand with the culture, we kind of have to expand internally. I mean, what are your thoughts, Josh? I love that. You know, you're, you're excellent example and thanks for sharing that., you reminded me of, the great Richard Feynman, the great scientist, and in his. The biography about him that, you know, there's a powerful story he tells of being a little boy with another little boy, and they come upon a bird, they're birdwatching, and the other boy says to Richard, can you tell me what kind of bird that is? And, Richard, replies something to agree of, I can't even begin to tell you what that bird is. And the boy gets very egotistical and says, what has your father not taught you anything? It's a true la faida or whatever it is. And the story goes into is Richard's father had. Told him something, that he had been on a nature hike with Richard, and they had seen the bird and the dad said, do you know what, kind of bird that is? And Richard said, no. And Richard's dad went through what the name of that bird was in several different languages. Chinese Spanish, and he says, when I tell you what that is, all I'm telling you about is about people who have studied and named the bird. I'm telling you absolutely nothing about the bird. So let's watch the bird and see what it does. Right? And I love that analogy for, you know, discernment in our own lives. You know, when I'm watching the news, am I learning about events or am I learning about. People's, perspective and interpretation about those events. And that might be great. But why don't I look at the event and see what it does, right? And see what it tells me. See what it evokes in my heart. Because if we're only looking at the world through other people's prisms, we lose sense of our own. And, I think a lot of people, you know, these days, I was talking about silence being a fear. I think they're afraid of a good conversation. You know, oh, you know, they, or, you know, or a vulnerability, you know, sharing a, a point of view. And, you know, this can keep us from, that growth, you know, of our becoming because, you know, whether I agree with your beliefs or not, you know, I admire people who have thought about what they think and live it with clarity And, you know, those are the people who I have the most respect with. And I might disagree with them on 70% of the, of the issues. I'm in agreement with you there. I, I love it when somebody shares their uniqueness, their difference, their, you know. But what I love even more is when somebody can be with a conversation that it's not like mine, but I can appreciate, like you said, when somebody's actually pondered, considered the information., that's one thing that I like about when I think of your book, you know, the sacred time concept is, you know, people can say, I'm doing sacred time. I am carving out my time. I'm doing my sacred time, and it's like going, but in your world, I mean, we kind of run in some similar worlds, but in your world, do you notice, I almost feel like the culture, the populace as a whole. Know so much ideals about spirituality and it's like heady stuff. It's like good, you know, this heady stuff, but I'm not feeling that you're connected to this essence of energy, your essence of presence. And it's not for me to judge or decide. I'm just saying, you know, if it, you can tell me a, a very in-depth philosophy, but if there isn't an expression of it that I feel, it makes me wonder, is it just a good idea? Yeah, it goes back to, you know, Richard Fireman's story too., there's an old iris joke where a guy, you know, approaches a man on the street and says, what religion are you? And he says, I'm an atheist. And the man asks, well, are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist? You know, we're always trying to classify each other. And, you know, for me, you know, sacred time and just back to this conversation about truth and what gets in the way, you know, really tries to embody that statement that, you know, don't tell me what your religion is. Show me it. Show me what you do. Oh yeah. And, you know, I can show you a good Catholic and a bad Catholic. I can show you a good Jew and a bad Jew. I could show you a good, a God-fearing atheist. Really, you know, in all these, in all these sorts of ways, the question becomes what are you doing every day to have reverence from what is most sacred in your life, to try to create a sense of resonance. And, listening to your life where you see it as something that, is practical and relevance. You know, how are you taking what you learned about yourself and applying it to the challenges of humanity today? And, you know, that's gonna show me, what someone's religion is not, what their, religious cultural background. We might, we might say, which is totally respectable. And I think it's great to be able to do that. And, you know, back to that. Topic of fear of conversation, and I'm glad you know, we're talking about what we're talking about, Tim, but you know, there's that old rule. You can't talk about politics and religion and you know, I hate that rule because usually politics and religion is all I wanna talk about. And is it that? Politics and religion are bad, or that we're so terrible at listening, you know, that we so go into our corners that we have this unwillingness to do. One of the greatest sacraments there is, which is to expand our mind, you know, and our conversation. Tim, my goal is to come out a better person because I've gotten to connect. You know, yeah. For me, that's, that's always, the better thing. And as you know, the great Socrates would tell us, you know, wisdom is grounded and founded in not knowing, you know, not, and ignorance and thinking that, you know, I think that's when we start to play with, and this is the arena that I play with in my book, but in the community that we're, we're doing is it's really that. Understanding the dynamic of ego. Like I have, I have my own sort of breakdown of what ego is, right? The elements of ego and how it influences us. And it's that aspect of ego really is part of what keeps us trapped. I had someone a couple weeks ago ask me, you know, when a lot of crazy stuff was happening on, you know, out in the world. And, the, just, the statement was, and I think it was more of a rhetorical statement, they're like, what's wrong with the world? You know? And I said. I don't know if I have the answer per se, but what I will share with you is this, there's a lot of egos really fighting to be right, and when you have that many egos that are just undeveloped and. That may be a little confrontational for some people, but yeah, we have a lot of people who don't have a good relationship with their inner child, their inner ego, their inner process, how they process their world. It's like the world's happening to them. It's doing stuff to them and it's, it's not an uncommon human experience. But the fact that you have the ability to have awareness gives you the ability to start growing and learning. I love that. No. Yeah, I think that's a great interpret interpretation. My son just got back from Asia and he was in Thailand, and there's the ability to go to some Buddhist temples there and talk to monks because it helps the monks practice their English and it helps the kid answer their questions. And so he was sharing that they were in a group and, someone was talking to the monk, and the monk was trying to say, ego is. Ego is, and ego is just really struggling to find the word. And one of the young kids there went a bitch. And so for the rest, the conversation, the, you know, the men would go, ego is a, is a bitch. And everyone would just laugh and laugh and yet, you know. You know, we, the ego is a bitch, you know, it's necessary. We all, we all need it. And yet at the same time, it can drag us, it can drag us down and be, and be a pain and, you know, part of sacred time. I think part of spiritual living, no matter what your religious background is what's the difference between living in the world as you think it is and the world as it really is. And I may never. Fully have a conscious experience of living in the world as it really is., but I can sure not live under the illusion that it is exactly as I think it is, you know? And when I can do those practices like meditation or reading or even having a rich conversation like this one, Tim, it helps me rise above, you know, the ego, which Freud basically described as who we think we are, to say, man, I'm more than that. And, I think that's the beauty of human connection too. Yeah, I agree. It's, you had said something a few minutes ago about, spoken, unspoken role of don't talk about politics and religion. Right. Was that concept, and I understand why that concept exists in culture. I also find it interesting, like for me over the years of really playing with this stuff and coming at the world and 'cause, you know, quite often, a lot of times on my path, I've really felt like I haven't fit into what the world wanted me to fit into. So it's given me some opportunity of perspective. It didn't always feel comfortable, I'll tell you that, but it gave me sort of this awareness and. For the longest time I ignored it. And then finally I was like, well, you know, maybe start sharing it with some people. But one of the things was is when it came down to, like politics and religion, to me that's just another language. It's a language where either in your family or not in your family, like you talked about, you know, you didn't start in a really religious family. Religion was more music right. Kind of thing. And everybody has so many, I know people who were. Grew up in devout families and you know, and it didn't really matter what the person's background was, but it was like, how are they expressing their language? And what I really see in our world today, common in our culture is utilizing the victim state to justify our purpose and. It's this aspect of is your, is your language, is your religion, is your politics your purpose? Or is it just another way that you can actually connect and speak? And maybe not, maybe not everybody is attacking your religion or attacking your politics. Maybe they don't feel either way about your religion or politics, but what they feel is how you actually represent what you say, and it's in con contradiction. To what that messaging is. That's what a lot of people, I don't think are really tapped into or standing in ownership for their own integrity, the integrity of their word, the integrity of their, their purpose of who they are. It's nowadays, it's like, I'll just take you there. It's like going, I have heard the word warrior so much in the last couple years. It's like, okay, everyone's doing their warrior work and I love warrior work, but I'm talking about warrior. I'm like, I go to master warrior. I don't go to the petty here. I'm a tough warrior. I'm gonna battle. I go no master warrior. If you really understand what warriors are and you really, explore the essence. You go to a master warrior. A master warrior will wait till the last absolute essential reason to battle before going to battle. We have so many people who are warriors for this, warriors for that warrior against cancer warriors, this, and it's like going energetically, you're calling out to the universe, let's bring on the battle, let's bring on the fight. Every war that's been created on this planet by human beings has been an ego based, you know, extension of who we are. And it's, it's when we start to play with these philosophies. I see. Yeah. Sorry. I'm just like, no, it's great. As we're talking about this, I'm just like going, this is just the stuff that comes up. I'm like going, I love it if you're gonna do warrior work, but do quality warrior work. Don't just like, you know, oh, I want to fight. I wanna be tough, I wanna, I want to succeed. You know, I, you know, 'cause then when I overcome somebody or a situation, now I feel validated. Why don't you feel validated before? Why haven't you done work before to help you feel more validated? What are your thoughts on this? I'm just going off over here. I think it's great. Well, no, well, my back is, it's one thing to be a warrior, but when you're done and you have to call your parents to come pick you up, that maybe you haven't always done the, the full work. Yeah. You know, I mean, just to jump right into the religion and the politics, you know, we've always had. You know, partisanship in our, in our, in our nation, it's bounded upon it, you know, I mean, that's what we've kind of needed. And the idea is you go to one poll, and then you get a little closer to the middle, a little bit more to the other poll. But there was never this absolute, you know, separation. And we live in a political time where, I'm not here to talk about which side is worse, but the fringes on each side there. Only platform is based upon pushing the other French down. There's no, platform in sense of their own ideas. It's just down with the other side to wherein early in our country, you know, Thomas Jefferson had a bust of Alexander Hamilton, his arch political rival in his home, you know, Hamilton wanting more federal powers, you know, Jefferson wanting it with the states, you know, just that. Basic American argument. And, you know, the thing is they shared values. You know, you are a worthy opponent and you know, I could care less what your political affiliation is. Back to the religion, you know, tell me what you value. We have shared values. I'm gonna listen to you and, you know, I love a story too 'cause it says so much. You know, it's, it is said of President Lincoln that he was the most religious of all the presidents, and yet he didn't belong to a church. And he was asked this one time, and apparently he said, yeah, if I ever found one that actually practiced the Golden rule, you know, I would sign, I'd sign up. And, there's a story about him that I think speaks to today's. Politics a little bit. You know, the first person he ever ran against in Congress was an evangelical minister, and he's given a sermon some one time at a church, and Lincoln is there and the evangelical minister says, if you are not going to, hell stand up. You know, that test standup and Lincoln doesn't stand up. And so the man looks at Lincoln and says, why aren't you standing? He says, 'cause I'm not going to hell. I'm going to Congress. And, what I love about that and how it speaks to the political time is, you know, you don't have to. Do something someone tells you to do, even if it's so-called correct. This idea of that kind of politics of move your body over here, move your body over there. It's this politics of kind of control., but when you're willing to stand in what you believe, even if it seems that you're the only one doing it's gonna be what resonates with others in the end. And so, I think today, you know, not to, you know, speak your truth on political issues is that's powerful. But you know, my truth is I can win people over to my side. My truth is that I can get off the fringes and come back to center and, you know, not everybody on the right is a demon and not everyone on the left is a maniac, you know? And so how can we do that? Because that's really, I think what is a little bit more unique, as I'll just speak to the United States of America is, that level of politics that it has., such a need to not just disagree with, but dehumanize and base its political approach based upon those ideas. Those are some great examples. Thank you for sharing that. It's, and it's all about having the conversation. I mean, I, you had shared, and I understand the, that part on the spectrum where it's, yeah. Win some, can I win someone over to my ideas and I think it's just how I process or experience my world is. I just want you to experience your humanity. 'cause I really, truly believe and trust that if you're in your humanity, you will be an individual of consideration. You will be an indi like when you truly understand how to empathize, how to have connection with maybe other human beings not like you, or animals who are going through, you know, traumatic situations either, you know, looking for a home in a shelter. Injured, whatever the case may be. It's, it's, it's, for me, it's whenever there's a being when we can actually stand in our humanity. That's, that's why I think I really appreciated your sacred time and the separation from the manufactured time, from the true essence of becoming right. And that's, that's the opportunity of becoming. Quick question for you, Josh., 'cause it sort of goes along with everything we've been talking about. And so you as a leader in the spiritual community you're in and just in general in life, what are your thoughts culturally, around leadership? And I'll, I'll expand a little bit on this question. The reason why I'm asking this is 'cause we live in this day and age where I hear leaders and leadership thrown around everywhere. It, it's so predominant. And yet I don't experience a lot of real gifted, talented leaders. I mean, there are people who can sell you on stuff that can sell ice cubes, Eskimos, right? I mean, it's like, but I play with this idea that we hear people in their leadership roles talking about leaders, and I really see them more showing up as bosses, I'm managing right. This isn't right. And it's like the difference for me is a leader truly. Is about helping those around them grow and surpass them. That's a real leader for me because that's when it's like their gift of passing it on, paying it forward is right there in the practice. And if the model works correctly, if you lead people well and you really get them to surpass you as they're surpassing you, the leaders that are in them will be like, here, come along. So all of a sudden you'll just ride the wave. It's not a matter of you'll be left behind, but even the thinking of left behind is the weaker ego thinking, you know? And that's why I think a lot of leaders that are actually bosses. It's about their ego. It's about, I don't know, too many real leaders who have the strength to look in themselves in the mirror reflectively. So what are your thoughts on this? Well, I love your thoughts. You know, we could, we could just rest those, theres, I can answer that several different ways just in the light of the conversation that having, I believe the philosopher's name is Kenneth Burke. And, you know, he has this philosophical idea that he calls the endless conversation. And so he says, you know, imagine you're in a tavern and, you know, you walk in and there's, you know, four or five people around a table and they're all enjoying a Guinness and they're all arguing about the truth of life and they're just having at it. And, at one point someone walks away from the table and there's a space for you to come and be., at the table, you've been listening to the argument for a while and you have something to say and you know, you're putting that in there too. And then all of a sudden kind of the hour's growing dark and it's time for you to go away from the table and for someone else to come up and, and to, and to have that conversation too. And so it's this beautiful kind of metaphor for life and what it's for. The discussion of these ideas and the realization of truth., for me, a false kind of leadership is my ideas. Need to be followed and agreed with. For me, greater leadership is I'm here to protect the conversation, right? Because I want your ideas and my ideas. I want to keep it going and to keep it impressive., it's not about being right. It's about the environment that we bring forward. And, you know, as a minister of a fairly large church in these very divisive political times, for example, to me, and I'll just speak this as a spiritual leader, a spiritual leader is greatly mistaken when they look at the audience and try to see them as a reflection of themselves. You know, the key in the heart is how can I best represent the wisdom in this congregation? And so when I write a sermon every week, that's my prayer. I'm not here to tell 'em what I think, right? I'm here to represent their wisdom and carry it forward. And I hope that's similar to what you were saying about leadership is, you know, my message to you is, I am no better than you, but if I can encourage you to be your best self, bam. There we go. And do better things than me as well. And you know, that's why I think we're, you know, and again, I'm not putting protesters down, but I, I'm interested in generals as well, you know, generals who are like, I don't care, what party you are. I'm here to serve the country. You know, I don't care., you know, as a leader, if you're a Democrat or a Republican, I'm not here to tell you what to think. I'm here to talk about how to think a little bit more so that we can focus and address. The issues that face this with courage and with curiosity and openness and optimism, not from the easy thing to go to, which is, you know, a preexisting slogan or viewpoint that's, that's out there, if that makes sense. And for me, that's been my hardest time as a leader is to rep is, is not to come up with my own position and to impart on people, but to really, get up there every Sunday and say, am I representing this person? Am I representing this person? Am I representing this person? And when I'm no longer am, that's when I feel I'm kind of losing it., a little, a little bit. It's not like I can't speak to the issues of the day from my heart, and I do, but I'm not there to do it, to try and make anyone wrong. Either. And, again, for me, it's not my role to lead the conversation, but to create environments for the conversation to keep, to keep happening. I just got this, I love what you're saying and, I, you know, like you said, protecting the conversation, the openness, the ability so that it has the ability to go, you know, to escalate through the spectrum, to have. You know, one version at one time and one version at another time. I mean, one of the biggest gifts we could ever give ourselves is to truly be present. Yeah. Right? Because timing is, you know, what was perfect five minutes ago in this situation may not be perfect five minutes later. And you being in, you know, a leadership position, not only of a community, but so you're the head of the community, then you're the head of the actual church business itself, right? Because you got, you got that business aspect to always think about. It just took me to a place years ago., and I, part of it's because you talked about listening earlier, and I've always been one of those, that's how I process my world, is being able to really listen to the layers of life. And, I had a friend that passed away many years ago, and when we went to the service, the spiritual leader of this community. Very charismatic. I mean, almost to the point. It could have been a movie star. It was so charismatic. But unfortunately, I was able to witness how he treated the people and the staff that he didn't feel were on his page. And I was just like, wow. You know, because this was a funeral company, not one that the church commonly worked with. You know, and it was like, and I would've been fine if it was a one off, but I saw it like it got reinforced a few times. Right. And I was like going, and that goes back to sort of what I was talking about when you get boss versus leader, right? Sometimes it's like, I understand from a business standpoint I'm a business owner. There are things that stress us out and get us going. And it's like you may have sometimes where you're not shining at your greatest or stuff like this. But when you have that pattern, like what I witnessed this gentleman going through, I was like, wow, I just have a hard time with that. It's like he, he's a good front man, you know, for a band, but it's sort of like, you know, what was that show like?, the breaking of the band or whatever it was. It was like, you know, the front man was great and then behind the scenes they were like tearing each other apart kind of. It's always a shadow war with, with leadership and, you know, you've used the word several times, you know, embracing our humanity. And, you know, something that I've learned as a minister, you know, speaking to hundred people, hundreds of people a week, you know, you're standing in that line and you know, people are walking through and I've given a message and I hope they're gonna say, you know, that's, that thing you said was so wise. I love that brilliant point you made. And that's never what they say, they always say. That story you shared about doing that stupid thing. I like that, you know? And so, you know, I think people, and back to your, you know, making people better, people should see themselves in their leader, right? And if, and if the leader immediately needs to be up at the penthouse and be put up on a pedestal and be infallible, you know, they've lost. Their ability to connect, with their audience. And so, you know, humility is such a great thing. And, you know, when I admit my humanity or share a mistake, what I've learned is that's what resonates most with the o, with the, with others. 'cause they say, here's this guy that I do respect. I do think he's a spiritual guy and he s. Every day, you know, and, you know, that's what I want them to hear. And, you know, if I could throw out one more Lincoln story, so I can reach trifecta, you know, link. It's the height of the Civil War. And there's a soldier that's wife has drowned and, you know, you know, Lincoln's just in the White House, you can just walk in and out. But the soldier comes in to request this of Lincoln and he's a little stressed. He is got a little bit of on his plate and he just says, do I have to be in charge of every godforsaken thing? And he says, you know, he does not a man, allow the man to leave. And he just asks, you know, makes him get out. And the leadership story is the next morning, Lincoln is at the man's door. Hat in hand. I'm so sorry. I was a brute last night, how can I help you? That to me is the difference between a, every good leader is gonna have that moment like Lincoln had, just having enough and needing that break, but really good leadership. So leadership isn't about, not making mistakes. It's about how quick you get back to what's right and centering, and then your willingness to be open with it. With your teams, you know, or with your spouse or with whoever it is. And, you know, I've learned that's where trust is built., and for me, leadership is trust. You know, I, where I have trust, I'm moving. And where I don't have it, I'm stagnant, I'm stuck. And, just like you were saying in that story, that preacher, there was no, you know, he may be the best showman in the world, but there is no truth, you know, operating there, behind the scenes in terms of, forward movement or growth. Yeah, the, well, and in that situation it's like, if I hadn't seen it, I actually saw it four different times. So if I hadn't only seen, if I'd only seen once, I'd be like, you know, benefit of the doubt kind of thing. But it was one of those things where, no, this is, this is a behavior. This was something that was a little bit more, but I love that example that you're sharing 'cause, I'd heard something similar to that. But I, the one thing that I love about that story with Lincoln, and it goes with some, a philosophy that I shared with people I've worked with for years. Don't ever be afraid of making a mistake. Be afraid that you can't clean it up. Now, I love that, you know, sometimes you can't clean it up because other people won't give you the space. You can still be at the door knocking with your hat in hand, right? That's the true strength of the individual, of the humanity in the individual is when you can stand in that vulnerability. When your ego's like, don't deal with this. Go hide, go justify it. Be in the excuse, whatever, run away, and you're like, no, this is integrity and who I am as my word, standing at that door. Oh yeah, I love that. So, we're, we're gonna wrap up here real quick, but I just, for some reason I have this question, I want to ask it real quick., how old were you when you did your first sermon? Oh, that's a great question. I was 24. Years old., if I, if I'm remembering it correctly, maybe a little younger., I'd given a talk when I was 16. That was like a four minute talk, but my first 20 some minute talk, I was in my, or my early twenties. I, became a minister in 2006 at 25. And so in June of this year, I will have been a minister for 20 years at the old. Shriveling age of 45. And so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm hoping to sign up for another 20 years here and, it's a great job. You know, I know, I'm sure some of your folks are spiritual, some may be secular, but you know, to be able to have a role that's main job is, you know, leadership and supporting people and, living great lives, you know, you know, no matter what their faith. It's been a great joy. It's been the great blessing of my life. Nice. Along with my kids. So were you, just real quick, when you delivered that, did you. Knock it out of the park. Were you like nervous? I was all get out going into it? No, I was a total mess. And I remember it was the Easter Sunday talk. It was a last minute opportunity and, my opening line of the talk was Who was Jesus? And, and, and it was. And then I couldn't remember what I was gonna say next. And so I kept going. Who was? Jesus, who was Jesus. So to be honest, it's actually the only sermon that was a complete and utter failure., you know, other than that, my ministerial sermon giving philosophy is just hit a single every time. If it goes over the fence once in a while it will, but if you're going up there trying to hit a home run every time, you're gonna strike out a lot. So, other than that, and yet I still get nervous every time I speak, but, you know, consistency is key. But that one was. That was a drop. I think I've somehow picked up in the middle of my planned sermon and went back to the beginning and, you know, at least I was young and cute. I was the baby minister. So, I think they forgave me. But, yeah, lots of practice and that, I think that's a good thing. Still being a younger minister is, you know, people underestimate how much practice and experience. I've, yeah. Had some grace for you. That's good. They had some grace for you and you had some grace for yourself. That's awesome. Yes. Well, one last thing on the topic of mistakes and then we can close is I had a good friend tell me, he said, whenever I apply for a job and they say, why should we hire you for this position? He always says, you should hire me because I promise you I've made more mistakes than anyone else applying for this job. And I love that because the idea was to convey that he had learned, you know, learned his lessons from his experience and, and was ready. And so, you know, that's the only mistake, right? Is not learning from it. So nice. I'm still a story of my life. Well, my friend., it is a real pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much for being here today., for our listeners, you know, check out Josh Reeve's book, sacred Time. He also has other books, but yeah, go check out, the meaning place. org where you can learn more about Josh and his other books as well as you can. Check him out at mile, www. milehighchurch. com. Thank you for listening today. I mean, this is really what this is about is us has having conversations about tough situations, but ultimately about staying open for what's possible in our own humility, our own humanity, and giving us the ability to consider one another and have grace for each other. So, until next time, I wish you all the best.